It is a great pleasure and an honor to “skywrite” with Vili Csányi. I already knew something about how perceptive, sensitive and intelligent dogs were from my years with my beloved Lédike (1959-1975), never forgotten and never “replaced”. But for decades now, starting already from the era of Vili’s unforgettable Bukfenc (and Zebulon, not a dog), both of whom I knew, Vili’s remarkable perceptiveness and understanding of dogs’ cognition and character have soared far beyond my modest mind-reading skill. I have learned so much from Vili that has stayed with me ever since.
So let me preface this by saying that every example Vili cites below is familiar, valid, and true — but not propositional (though “associative” is a non-explanatory weasel-word to describe what dogs really do perceive, understand, express, want and know, and I regret having evoked it: it explains nothing).
Dogs, of course, knowingly perceive and understand and can request and show and alert and inform and even teach — their conspecifics as well as humans. But they cannot tell. Because to tell requires language, which means the ability to understand as well as to produce re-combinatory subject/predicate propositions with truth values. (A mirror production/comprehension capacity.) And to be able to do this with one proposition is to be able to do it with all propositions.
When Vili correctly mind-reads Bukfenc, and even mind-reads and describes what Bukfenc is mind-reading about us, and is trying to express to us, Vili is perceiving and explaining far better what dogs are thinking and feeling than most human mortals can. But there is one thing that no neurotypical human can inhibit themselves from doing (except blinkered behaviorists, who mechanically inhibit far, far too much), and that is to “narratize” what the dog perceives, knows, and wants — i.e., to describe it in words, as subject/predicate propositions.
It’s not our fault. Our brains are the products of about 3 million years of human evolution, but especially of language-specific evolution occuring about 300,000 years ago. We evolved a language-biased brain. Not only can we perceive a state of affairs (as many other species can, and do), but we also irresistibly narratize it: we describe it propositionally, in words (like subtitling a silent film, or putting a thought-bubble on an animal cartoon). This is fine when we are observing and explaining physical, chemical, mechanical, and even most biological states of affairs, because we are not implying that the falling apple is thinking “I am being attracted by gravity” or the car is thinking “my engine is overheating.” The apple is being pulled to earth by the force of gravity. The description, the proposition, the narrative, is mine, not the apple’s or the earth’s. Apples and the earth and cars don’t think, let alone think in words) Animals do think. But the interpretation of their thoughts as propositions is in our heads, not theirs.
Mammals and birds do think. And just as we cannot resist narratizing what they are doing (“the rabbit wants to escape from the predator”), which is a proposition, and true, we also cannot resist narratizing what they are thinking (“I want to escape from that predator”), which is a proposition that cannot be literally what the rabbit (or a dog) is thinking, because the rabbit (and any other nonhuman) does not have language: it cannot think any proposition at all, even though what it is doing and what it is wanting can be described, truly, by us, propositionally, as “the rabbit wants to escape from the predator”). Because if the rabbit could think that propositional thought, it could think (and say, and understand) any proposition, just by re-combinations of content words: subjects and predicates; and it could join in this skywriting discussion with us. That’s what it means to have language capacity — nothing less.
But I am much closer to the insights Vili describes about Bukfenc. I am sure that Vili’s verbal narrative of what Bukfenc is thinking is almost always as exact as the physicist’s narrative about what is happening to the falling apple, and how, and why. But it’s Vili’s narrative, not Bukfenc’s narrative.
I apologize for saying all this with so many propositions. (I’ve explained it all in even more detail with ChatGPT 4o here.)
But now let me answer Vili’s questions directly, and more briefly!):
“Bukfenc and Jeromos asked. They then acted on the basis of the reply they got. They often asked who would take them outside, where we were going and the like. The phenomenon was confirmed by Márta Gácsi with a Belgian shepherd.” István, do you think that the asking of the proposition (question) is also an association?
My reply to Vili’s first question is: Your narrative correctly describes what Bukfenc and Jeromos wanted, and wanted to know. But B & J can neither say nor think questions nor can they say or think their answers. “Information” is the reduction of uncertainty. So B&J were indeed uncertain about where, when, and with whom they would be going out. The appearance (or the name) of Éva, and the movement toward the door would begin to reduce that uncertainty; and the direction taken (or perhaps the sound of the word “Park”) would reduce it further. But neither that uncertainty, nor its reduction, was linguistic (propositional).
Let’s not dwell on the vague weasel-word “association.” It means and explains nothing unless one provides a causal mechanism. There were things Bukfenc and Jeromos wanted: to go for a walk, to know who would take them, and where. They cannot ask, because they cannot speak (and not, I hope we agree, because they cannot vocalize). They lack the capacity to formulate a proposition, which, if they had that capacity, would also be the capacity to formulate any proposition (because of the formal and recursive re-combinatory nature of subject/predication), and eventually to discover a way to fly to the moon (or to annihilate the earth). Any proposition can be turned into a question (and vice versa): (P) “We are going out now.” ==> (Q) “We are going out now?” By the same token, it can be turned into a request (or demand): P(1) “We are going out now” ==> (R) “We are going out now!”
My reply is the same for all the other points (which I append in English at the end of this reply). I think you are completely right in your interpretation and description of what each of the dogs wanted, knew, and wanted to know. But that was all about information and uncertainty. It can be described, in words, by us. But it is not a translation of propositions in the dogs’ minds, because there are no propositions in the dogs’ minds.
You closed with:
“The main problem is that the study of language comprehension in dogs has not even begun. I think that language is a product of culture and that propositions are not born from some kind of grammatical rule, but rather an important learned element of group behavior, which is demonstrated by the fact that it is not only through language that propositions can be expressed, at least in the case of humans.”
I don’t think language is just a cultural invention; I think it is an evolutionary adaptation, with genes and brain modifications that occurred 300,000 years ago, but only in our species. What evolved is what philosophers have dubbed the “propositional attitude” or the disposition to perceive and understand and describe states of affairs in formal subject/predicate terms. It is this disposition that our language-evolved brains are displaying in how we irresistibly describe and conceive nonhuman animal thinking in propositional terms. But propositions are universal, and reciprocal: And propositionality is a mirror-function, with both a productive and receptive aspect. And if you have it for thinking that “the cat is on the mat” you have it, potentially, both comprehensively and productively, for every other potential proposition — all the way up to e = mc2. And that propositional potential is clearly there in every neurotypical human baby that is born with our current genome. The potential expresses itself with minimal need for help from us. But it has never yet emerged from any other species — not even in apes, in the gestural modality, and with a lot of coaxing and training. (I doubt, by the way, that propositionality is merely or mostly a syntactic capacity: it is a semantic capacity if ever there was one.)
There is an alternative possibility, however (and I am pretty sure that I came to this under the influence of Vili): It is possible that propositionality is not a cognitive capacity that our species has and that all other species lack. It could be a motivational disposition, of the kind that induces newborn ducklings to follow and imprint on their mothers. Human children have a compulsion to babble, and imitate speech, and eventually, in the “naming explosion,” to learn the (arbitrary) names of the sensorimotor categories they have already learned. (Deaf children have the same compulsion, but in the gestural modality; oral language has some practical advantages, but gestural language is every bit as propositional as oral language, and has the full power of Katz’s effability.)
Could the genes we have that other species lack be mostly motivational? driving the linguistic curiosity and linguistic compulsion that’s there in human babies and not in baby chimps? (I say “linguistic” c & c, because other species certainly have plenty of sensorimotor c & Cc..)
Ölel, István
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“When I work upstairs in our house in Almad, Janka lies quietly on the ground floor. When Éva leaves and comes back from somewhere, Janka emits a single characteristic squeal, which can be intended for me, because if I don’t react, she comes up and barks, calling me.” István, is this a proposition or an association?
“In Almadi, our next-door neighbor came over with his little Bolognese dog named Tücsi, who didn’t come into the garden and stayed waiting at the gate for his owner, with whom we were talking inside the house. Our dog Bukfenc periodically went down to play with Tücsi. After about 10 minutes, Bukfenc came up and turned toward the neighbor and barked at him. Everyone stirred. Bukfenc went straight down the stairs to the gate, followed by the neighbor. Tücsi had disappeared; as it turned out ,he had gone home and Bukfenc was reporting this to the neighbor.” István, is this a proposition or an association?
“During the time of Bukfenc and Jeromos, I woke up at 3 a.m. to very soft grunting. Bukfenc was grunting very softly and together with Jeromos, they were standing next to my bed. I only opened my eyes a crack, pretending to be asleep. Bukfenc growled softly again, I didn’t react. Jeromos gave a loud squeal. I got up and told them, come on Jeromos, it seems you have something urgent to do. To my surprise, Jeromos went to his bed and lay down, and Bukfenc ran screaming towards the door. He managed to get to the street in time: he had diarrhea.” István, is Jeromos’s barking a proposition or an association?